Franz Bardon in his book, The Practice of Magical Evocation, mentions over five hundred different spirits whom he says he has personally contacted. When we come to the Saturn sphere, Bardon says there are forty-nine original intelligences whom he calls Judges and Executors of Fate. These spirits preside over all planetary spheres in the area of karma and especially in regard to the activities of negative spirits.
Similar to a judge in a courtroom, they possess the power to limit, to confine, and to deny. Unlike a judge in a courtroom, their power and commission enable them to destroy entire civilizations as well as the personal and spiritual will of those who violate cosmic laws. Such a notion might sound strange but this seems to be what judges do--they make difficult decisions and often limit individuals' rights or severely restrict the exercise of their will.
Though Bardon gives names, descriptions, and the sigils for most of the spirits he writes about, he refrains from doing this for the Saturn spirits. He explains that prior to attempting to work with the sphere of Saturn an individual should work through several systems of initiation and feel almost at home in the seven previous planetary spheres.
Saturn, as an astrological influence in an individual's life, can have a depressing and nightmarish quality if badly aspected. Similarly, the energy of the spirits of this sphere are extremely oppressive, dangerous, and menacing. Bardon points out that these Judges are not oriented toward teaching the intricacies of Quabalah and magick. Bardon questions why anyone would want to spend much time in this sphere since these spirits only seem to relate the details and case histories of how, for example, black magicians are punished and how negative spirits are unleashed for a time as a form of karmic consequences.
Bardon mentions that if an individual is not sufficiently prepared, the evocation of one of these spirits could result in death not only of the physical but also of the astral body. The idea of a spirit being dangerous just by its presence might be a little hard to comprehend. Of course, we do not have to journey into the spiritual domain of Saturn to put ourselves in harms way. We all know there are environments which should not be entered without great care.
On a nuclear submarine, the crew wears a patch which indicates their level of exposure to radiation. When we visit the dentist's office these days the dentist is all bundled up in protective gloves and face mask. Another individual's blood can kill. There is even a joke in Detroit. If you want to kill someone you take them out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, get them drunk, and then drop them off after midnight a block off Woodward Ave. near the freeway. There are places in our cities which are lethal.
But Bardon says these spirits can destroy the astral body. The intensity of their auras dissolves the four elements: earth, air, fire, and water--consciousness, thought, will, and feeling--are annihilated. The elements animating the emotional life and astral body can not endure this kind of akashic acid because Saturn spirits destroy false attachments, dependency, illusions, clinging, need, and desire. The presence of any one of the 49 Judges contains an absolute demand that you present yourself as a spirit who is free of the worlds of form. If you want to talk with these beings, do so within a spiritual identity which is indestructible and with a purpose equal in seriousness to their own.
For many, the idea of a spirit having authority over spiritual evolution may seek stupid. Of course, in our society investigative journalists and individuals using freedom of speech are constantly calling attention to governmental corruption and abuse of power. And science as well has joined those who seek to preserve and protect the environment. Feedback is present and acts a kind of social conscience.
In ancient societies, the prophet Isaiah, for example, cornered King David. Isaiah asked the king to make a judgment against a criminal and then applied that judgment to David's own actions. The prophets of Israel were always concerned about the use and abuse of power both in Israel and in the surrounding nations. And there were times when they seemed to wield immense power--the ability to destroy entire armies. And through their words they offered nations the opportunity to alter their fate.
The 90th psalm is written from the perspective of Saturn. It reads, "You turn men to destruction and say, `Return children of mankind.' For a thousands in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past and as a watch in the night." Individuals, nations, and religions as well fall under the law of karma. No matter how great an individual's will or how extensive its influence, in the cycles of time all that has been built and accomplished will be destroyed except for the universal elements which were present.
Among the Hopi Indians, also, there was a spiritual and magical power exerted to insure that the culture pursued its spiritual destiny. The chiefs, the medicinemen, the warrior clan, the priests, etc. each had their own specific power which they could use to bring the society back into line. Hopi legends record the times and places when these powers were used--fire storms, disease, earthquakes, war, etc. For the Hopi, survival was an issue--if you lose the spiritual core of your culture, you lose your ability to survive.
The Hopi and the Israeli's cultures, when inspired, were not blind and fanatical theocracies. These cultures originated from the vision that nature, man, and spirit are interwoven and inseparable. Within conscience is found the ability to shape time, space, and history. It is possible to accomplish work which endures through time and whose value never fades. This capacity is the power Saturn communicates.
Often I project my mind in the different planetary spheres. This is called mental wandering. When I do this I am free to observe and experience the aura of a planet without being interrupted or approached. Usually I have to exert a conscious effort to make a connection to a spiritual being within these spheres.
While visiting the Saturn sphere, I was struck by its familiarity and the amount of influence it has had in my life. I began reflecting on my past going back to college and high school. But almost immediately a voice began speaking to me. It seemed to be distilling all my experience into a few words: "There is no where you belong. There is no community whose membership offers you meaning. There is no love you can receive even when it is freely given. All that exists for you is a sacred quest.
"I am the nightmare whose spell you can not resist. I am the dark mistress dwelling within a cosmic abyss. Desolation, isolation, sorrow, and emptiness--these are magnificent jewels adorning the necklace around my neck. It is I who offered you a soul mate as beautiful as the stars in the sky and it is I who then took her away from you--that you might know that love and beauty of this magnitude are wonders hidden in my treasure chest. It is I who taught you to see that all the wisdom and knowledge men crave and worship is of no value at all unless it grants you the power to create love where none exists."
Well, that was putting it a little more bluntly than I would have preferred to have heard it but it was not inaccurate. Saturn has had a rather demanding presence in my life. I am not saying I do not love or that I have not been given love. I am only saying that my life has been carefully designed so that it was inevitable that I would ask and then pursue the answer to a number of questions. And to answer my questions I have had to enter spiritual domains not known on earth such as this one--the sphere of Saturn with its 49 Judges and Executors of Fate. No matter what is going on in his life, any good magician has a will that remains as strong as titanium--he finishes what he sets out to do. But his will does not in any way diminish his ability to feel. I wrote this poem to the dark moon as a hymn also to Saturn as a way of honoring her mysteries:
The Balsamic Moon
Cold, cold Balsamic Moon
Your darkness is the opposite
Of your other face:
Silvery ecstasy
Your hands of light
Within the night
Are acceptance, delight, and serenity.
But this dark face
Guards the place
Where terror is bound
This empty shadow crossing over
Obliterating the stars
Eclipsing the sun
You are a black hole within the heart
An abyss to dissolve within
Ah, but I know better than to complain
You are also a Gate
For those who would be reborn as Spirit.
My dear, you are so easy to hate and despise
To desire you are acid
To pleasure you are pain
To joy you are sorrow and ruin
But women understand you well enough
The mouth that nurses their breasts
Learns to resist, grows up, departs
The child's heart now given to another
Barren and desolate are a mother's share
Of what was once the most tender affection
But men feel your caress
Only in absolute despair
When all hope is abandoned
You are the grave when life is left behind
You are the earth where the seed dies
You are the circle of fire
Guarding Mysteries men shall never taste
Still, though invisible,
You are constantly flirting with me
In the woman who is so easily offended
With a wave of her hand or a glance
She makes hatred appear out of thin air
I swear, she knows every bitter herb and root
Within a hundred miles
She hurls darts of jealousy
At any pleasure a man takes
At any work a man makes
Without her to guide him along
But I see through your eyes this Wisdom--
Anything that rusts or corrodes
Has no place in your heart
You have walked by my side my whole life
Every time I have sought to be touched
By another in love
You have said:
First you must die
You must let go of the love you would hold
Only then will love find you
In a new and unknown form
You can not even imagine.
You say to me:
You must build a bridge
Between one heart and another
Sing into existence a path of Light
This is how you entered this world
And this is how you will attain your destiny.
You say to me: And if you honor my soul
As you know
Of the stars I am very fond
I will give you all of their treasures
The mysteries of civilizations forgotten
And of ages unborn
I will give you clairvoyance
Time will undo her veils
And stand naked before your eyes
The Guardians of the world
Will visit you in your room at dawn
If you will drink my wine
Refined from the essence
Of sorrow, regret, sadness, and loss,
You see,
I am the opposite of oblivion
I am the hand held out in welcome
To those who would be free
Know this you who seek to look upon my form:
The path that leads from the darkest night
To the heart of the sun
Is born from my womb.
Though I admit
Only a wise man
Is ready to concede
My beauty, though well-hidden,
Outshines all other women.
There are also other indications that I have close connection to Saturn. For example, the initial impetus which sent me on an exploration of magical paths for the last quarter of a century involved matters which Saturn rules over: individuals using black magic. Decades ago, a small group was attempting, with a great deal of skill, to coerce a friend of mine into serving them against her will. This seems to be something the modern world does not yet comprehend: even a small group of individuals can exercise a great deal of power when they unite and focus their wills magically.
And there is the fact that I often meet individuals who have extremely complex karmic situations. For example, when I volunteer to do meditation for a divorcing couple, the guy wants to tell me the whole story of his life so he can let go of his attachments. He is a professional assassin with many confirmed kills who was hired and trained by a government agency. And then a week or so later this same individual is ordered by a circuit judge to attend my anger management class.
This type of situation is not unusual for me to run into. Often, however, the individuals have spiritual powers far more dangerous to other individuals and to society than a professional assassin has. The judges in family court here, by the way, have recently set up screening procedures for divorcing couples. They now want a careful accessment of how dangerous the individuals are who come into their courtrooms.
1/23/97: The following descriptions are about the presiding spirit of the 49 Judges of Saturn. As I tune into her aura, I notice her energy is like that of a chief justice of a supreme court. But also she is like the attorney general, the office of general accounting, a special prosecutor, the head of the FBI, etc. all rolled into one. Attorneys spend a great deal of time studying case law. And the history of the supreme court, e.g., tells you a great deal about the history of the United States. Similarly, if you look into this spirit's mind you can see the history of our solar system. You see the great accomplishments and you see where the various evolutions have made their greatest errors and suffered severe consequences as a result.
There is a pure, singular vision in her eyes. She sees what is required to attain to unlimited spiritual consciousness. Her job is to insure that spiritual paths are available to all races and evolutions to attain the highest cosmic wisdom for those who have the commitment and determination to seek these things. She is guardian of the gates to cosmic power and will. She guards the gates leading into the mysteries of Divine Providence.
But this is not just a restraining and protective function. She oversees the laying down of the foundations necessary so that the human race is prepared to attain its destiny. She is not that destiny but she insures the resources are there so it can be attained. She establishes precedents, inspires prophets, and maintains traditions which preserve wisdom so that the akasha can be mastered.
From her point of view, the mind of each great master on earth is available to be studied through the power of akashic intuition. The beauty and nobility of each soul and the will and spirit within it is there to learn from. You can enter it and taste it and experience all that the other accomplished. The spiritual teachers of all ages are among the inheritance of the human race. It is what is available on the inner planes and easily accessed. She takes me on a brief tour of the spiritual masters of earth to illustrate her point:
When you read the Baghavad Gita, you can also enter the mind of Krishna. In so doing, you can understand the nobility and generosity of his human personality. And you can perceive his realization of being a divine being--utterly transcendent and independent of space and time. Krishna had a cosmic aspect.
When you read the Heart Sutra, you can enter the mind of Avolekitesvara who is the god of compassion and who incarnates according to the Tibetans in the form of the Dalai Lama. In so doing, you can perceive directly as he perceived in the Heart Sutra that form is not separate from emptiness and emptiness is not separate from form. And you can feel within that mind the great triumphant shout that arises in the mind of a Buddha because liberation from the worlds of form is attained, freedom is complete.
And for that matter, when you come the life of the Buddha, you find he was already kind and compassionate though somewhat naive and innocent before he became enlightened. But there was an immense impetus and force of staggering proportions leading him forward on his quest.
At his birth, he was given a prophecy: he could become the ruler of a great historical kingdom governed by the ideals of justice, magnanimity, and the highest aspirations; or he could attain to a complete and absolute spiritual realization. If you follow the inner workings of his mind it is clear that he wished to bear witness to eternity within the confines of time and history. The former choice was never an option for him. He knew instinctively that his home and where he belonged was within the enlightened mind.
Everyone is free to enter the mind of the Buddha and feel what he meant when he said, "When I attained perfect enlightenment, I attained precisely nothing." The clear, open, and luminous state of mind was there all along. You only need to enter it to become a part of it.
You can read the words, "As above, so below," of Hermes Trismegistus. But you can also enter his mind. And there, in that place of wonder, you can understand what it is to be a cosmic scientist. The one who studies with him becomes competent in all manner of evocation and magical science. His is the science the human race will practice when it has become enlightened.
You can read the Tao Te Ching and study the words of Lao Tzu. Perceiving him through the power of akasha, you can see he was a quiet, unassuming man with an immense aura. He felt living in harmony with the universe was all you need to do. Entering his mind it is abundantly clear that the sky, the mountains, the rivers, the trees, and the seas was all a part of the serenity of his soul. The beauty of the earth was in his breath and in his dreams.
And there is Moses with his great strength and stability engaged in a work of emancipation leading slaves into freedom. Moses was also a high initiate. In his soul was the desire to establish on earth the sacred beauty and presence of Divine Providence. This is clear as you enter his mind--his commitment to identifying with akasha was absolute.
You can also enter the mind of Christ whom the Christians speak of as being fully human and fully God also. You can sit there with him in the desert at night and feel the breath of the wind as he listens and feels the starlight falling upon his skin. You can experience what it is like to be a vessel so humble and empty, pure love is free to flow through it. And you can experience what it is like to walk about and engage others while always remaining within a state of stillness and peace. In Christ, power and gentleness walked side by side until his work was accomplished.
At the same time, you can also experience the divine within him. Within him is the light shining from within the heart of all-embracing love. And within this light, if you follow it to its source, you can hear the voice of God speak, "I asked him to appear and to make his sacrifice that My omnipresent, eternal, and infinite love might be known and celebrated on earth."
The point of this brief exploration of the minds of the different world teachers is that the wisdom and spiritual wealth of all these teachers is something this Judge gathers together into one spiritual realization. What has been accomplished on earth in the spiritual realm serves as a steppingstone to cosmic wisdom.
As a Judge, she guards the preservation of this wisdom and the right of anyone to search for it. But, as the presiding Judge of Saturn, she is death, annihilation, and destruction to those who would contaminate the paths or seal the gates leading to these sacred domains on the inner planes and which we can discover within our hearts.
She says to me, "I determine how far any individual, group, civilization, or race may go in abusing its spiritual powers. I judge each on a case by case basis weighing the facts of the situation according to cosmic laws. When they fail to heed all signs of warning that have been sent them, when they continue in their ways of destruction, and when they have decided to destroy their own conscience, then I become their master and their mistress--the lady of fate waiting in their path with her hands held open in greeting. I am the isolation they are seeking. I am the cold, gray, implacable will they crave which is incomprehensible power and might and beyond all understanding. In my embrace is the end to all their ties to the human race.
"Don't they see? My love is free and it has the ability to take away until only the spirit remains. I destroy the personality. False attachments I annihilate. I am the wheel of time grinding into dust the illusion, ill-will, and malice of those who violate my sanctuary. There is no limit to my authority to determine fate--to judge, prosecute, bind, and confine--those who interfere with my work."
"Yet I am also the face of grace--I have a different plan for everyone who comes to me. You may think me rather gloomy and excessively solemn. You are right only in part. Within my heart I am the silence guarding the mysteries. I have no concern at all for your suffering, your misery, or the limitations under which you exist. That is not my commission. You will not find any pity in me.
"Yet there is no resource, treasure, or gift I withhold or refuse those who seek to become pure spirit. Those who are my friends are masters of silence. They reveal themselves only according to the dictates of their missions. But do not think that I lack passion because I strip the soul of its impurities. With desire greater than any virgin, with more devotion than any woman on earth, I give all of my heart to those who are the servants of love."
1/24/97: She went on, "All negative spirits within this solar system obey my instructions down to the smallest detail when I give them a command. I test those who would use the highest magick more rigorously and with greater demands than any demon with diabolical cunning could devise. I am that part of your conscience you will one day meet--your own inner spirit will ask of you that your will embody the laws of the universe and the wisdom of all planetary spheres and evolutions. Those who are not ready to make this commitment had best avoid attracting my attention and falling under the gaze of my eyes.
"Let me say it again so it is clear beyond any doubt: anyone who interferes with my work by default falls under my jurisdiction. You see, the core of my power and the duties I have been authorized to perform arise from a source human evolution can not comprehend. For this reason I can blend with more subtlety into the mind of a magician than air with lungs or blood with veins. If the will of malice escapes the karmic ties the elements contain, I will bundle up all the hate and cruelty and contain it within a black magician's mind so it is like a black hole in space whose gravity no one can escape."
She also pointed out to me a number of examples of individuals who are permitted to incarnate but only under heavy karmic restrictions. Often before incarnating, they agree place themselves under one or more individuals authority they will meet in life. These individuals then act as role models and they guide them in the development of their conscience. Should they violate these terms, they may die suddenly as a result. Their personality and their astral body begin to dissolve as the more powerful will within them from other life times is activated. The individual's present identity loses its feeling of being connected to life as well as the will to survive.
Some individuals have a magical will which is so powerful and hostile it would easily interfere with others' spiritual development if given free reign. These individuals are, let us say, on probation from the Judges of Saturn and they are assigned inner plane case workers or probation officers who watch them closely. If they use the dark side of their will, as Bardon mentions, there are demonic beings near at hand who will make every effort to take control of them.
One of the roles Saturn plays in astrology is to take away. Saturn makes transits and says, "Times up. You have had your chance to grow, to develop, to solve your problems, and to learn to be free. You have had the chance to make a contribution to your world. Now the resources I gave you are no longer available." But Saturn does something even worse. Due to actions of a former lifetime or in a current situation, Saturn will curse someone by binding that individual within a tormenting spiritual and psychic isolation. It does not matter how many people they know or who know them. They are placed within an astral abyss.
Furthermore, what is so Saturnian about this judgment, is that Saturn will not give a single clue as to what they must do to undo the curse. In the Arthurian Legend, King Arthur, with his life at stake, had to answer within one year the riddle, "What do women want most from men?" And his friend Gewain helped him out and in so doing undid a curse on another individual. But there is no such help for those cursed by Saturn.
The reason for this is that Saturn is the guardian of conscience. An individual who has abused spiritual and magical power has damaged his own conscience. Consequently, on their own initiative they must engaged in prolonged introspection--a favorite activity of Saturn--in order to recreate what they have destroyed in themselves. In other words, they have to figure out on their own what the disharmony is and what they have to do to make things right.
Excuses, anger, resentment, revenge, blame, hatred, animosity, greed, corruption--these must be put completely aside and a new individual must be created, an individual who chooses to be free of all negative influence. The will required to accomplish this is often greater in magnitude than anything the individual has exerted before. Yet it often requires the most severe and depressing of life circumstances to get them to even consider that they are responsible for the situations they have fallen into. Only when they see that all they have can be taken away again and again do they begin to start listening to their conscience or wondering why they have not had the wisdom to avoid their present situation.
I also asked this spirit about the fall of Atlantis--how it that could have been prevented. She replied, "Malice, the will to destroy, chaos, and evil only exist to strengthen the will of mankind. If a civilization or a world is destroyed, it happens because no one took the responsibility to lay the foundation for a different destiny. The will and power of Divine Providence are always available to those who are willing to join with the light. The purpose of becoming enlightened is not to attain liberation but to preserve light on earth.
"To have saved Atlantis from destruction, someone would have had to call down to the earth one of the Judges of Saturn to take away the power of the evil magicians. Then when they practiced their rituals nothing would have happened. If that had been done, within a few thousand years the earth would have become filled with cosmic wisdom and peoples' hearts full of light."
In Bardon's book, Frabrato, he mentioned how under the Third Reich the Nazi's demanded all occultists and psychics either join the Nazi party or face concentration camps. Hitler wanted a complete monopoly on all magic and spiritual powers. The point is that if a society continued for a period of time in this manner, it would not be possible for those seeking spiritual wisdom to find their way.
Even if an individual remained silent and worked alone, once he entered the inner planes he would have run into insurmountable difficulties. The astral environment would have been corrupted. Dreams and visions would not be pure. This effect would have been accomplished because it would have been the intention and the order of the evil magicians to do so--that no one attain freedom or spiritual wisdom. This was what was occurring at the end in Atlantis. And this is precisely the conditions under which the Judges of Saturn step in--when the inner planes and spiritual resources of a planet are about to be contaminated. In the case of Atlantis, the damage to the earth would have been permanent if that civilization had not ended. There is no recourse or appeal for the judgment of these spirits.
If, however, a judge of Saturn had been called to the earth, the wills of the black magicians would not have been effective. Their own malice would have become their fate and the society and nature as well would not have been in jeopardy. But this was not done. And so Saturn judged the entire civilization. The elements of nature were ordered to turn against them. The ground literally fell away from beneath their feet. Nature and the four elements exist for us to learn from so that our souls can grow. They are not meant to be turned into tools to destroy or to contaminate. I have a habit of meditating with spirits on each of the four planes. This is a brief summary of her conversations:
'When I am present on your planet on the akashic plane, I bring to light with precision the truth of what your race has accomplished. I make available all realizations and treasures of spirit attained in the past as one state of consciousness you can enter and master. My presence is not the liberation of the mind of an individual who has attained freedom from the negative influences of the four elements and the various attractions and illusions on the lower planes of form. You do not need my expertise for that. Those who attain such things are not even aware of my existence or my influence. Rather, the work you accomplish under my guidance will be celebrated an earth for tens of thousands of years."
"If you ever wish to experience complete freedom, to see through the eyes of the divine, to perceive the mysteries Divine Providence has designed, meet me on the mental plane. When your consciousness is capable of being pure emptiness, without form or definition, and capable of penetrating everywhere, then you will know that I am your friend. I will give you the keys to all secrets and all mysteries. Nothing can then bind or limit you and sorrow will not be able to find you."
"Everything that exists celebrates the mystery of love. Love is everywhere and in everything. It is in every thought, every experience, very sensation and sensory perception. All power in the universe falls under its jurisdiction.
"If you call me to the astral plane, you will be at peace with the universe. Nothing will be able to interfere with you. Astral immortality is one of my gifts and the freedom to chose where you will incarnate. You will be able to read the most obscure influences of the past, present, and future.
"But my speciality is setting right severe problems affecting the planet. I am the chief justice of the solar system. I oversee and facilitate the resolution of the most difficult karmic situations. There are situations so severe that, if it were possible, even I would experience sorrow. But there is no problem that occurs that my art can not resolve. If it is necessary, I will make an ending. It is someone else's problem how to begin again."
"My physical presence is a cosmic emanation. It is the concentration needed to shape time, space, and history so that what is brought into manifestation remains for countless ages. If you open your heart, as mine is open, you can feel the presence beside you of all those in the history of the world who were motivated by true nobility and the highest spiritual ideals.
"For the weak and the unprepared, my presence is destruction. But for those whose commitment is absolute and who are willing to embrace the truth of the universe, my aura is a divine fragrance. I gather the nectar of love and beauty from the hearts of those who have accomplished the work of eternity which fades not away and which nothing can destroy. In my eyes you behold the mirror dissolving the forms of time so eternity can appear.
"I weep not for what is lost even when it is by my hand that a world is destroyed. Matter, form, space, time, and life have been created so that you might learn to open the gates of spirit and attain complete freedom. Many ignore my voice when I speak. They refuse my gifts and my invitations. But there will a come a time when I will take away all that you have. Then you will be left with the void where no sun shines and no stars guide. In that place, there is no sweet rose, no waves or scent of ocean breeze, no wondrous and glorious trees. Even the mountains leave no trace, no horizon, no paths to walk, no form to embrace.
"I will ask of each of you one day to become someone who delights in creating from nothing new worlds more magnificent and sacred than have ever been known. You see, I have been designated to remind you of your destiny. Each of you shall one day be greater than I. If I destroy a culture, a civilization, a race, or a planet you will provide another in its place where love is honored and celebrated with greater beauty and grace.
"I am emptiness, darkness, the void and the abyss--the places of spirit where matter can not exist. But you shall fill up my nights with works as dazzling and bright as the stars. Learn as me not to weep when death and fate take away. Renounce regret, sorrow, and loss. Every ending, separation, farewell, and goodbye is a sacred rite in my eyes. It contains my blessing and my voice. It is a gift reminding you of who you are--that one day you will be without form or limitation. The beauty of the universe will shine in your hearts and omnipresence will be part of everyone's art.
"If by your will and your might you call me to the physical world and survive the annihilation of form, matter, and time I emanate, then that very night you will discover that separation is banished forever. I am the gateway leading to cosmic wisdom, a guardian of the worlds, and a member of the community which serves the One Light."
Note: all my work with these various spirits is on-going. I have a great deal more work to do with this particular Saturn spirit, but that report is for another time.